by Octorok - 08.08.05
[4cr Guest Columnist - octorok]

This is a warning to anyone who would consider
buying an HDTV for the purpose of gaming
$3579.99 is how much cash I handed the clerk at Fry’s Electronics. I was especially happy because I had driven one hour south into Oregon where I made my purchase tax-free. After reviewing my extended warranty with the floor supervisor, I promptly exited the store with the largest smile you’ve ever seen on anybody’s face EVER. As I was securing my priceless cargo into the rear of my truck, people were walking by with envious comments like, “You’re taking that to my house, right?” I was in the sweet la-la land of outrageous techno-geek-paradise… And it was good.
At 11:30pm I played the first game on my new 56″ DLP HD behemoth: The Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of Time (from the MasterQuest duo) via component inputs. It was glorious. Playing videogames on a screen that big is like having a dream that you’re flying amidst the mountainous cliffs of the Grand Canyon - I never wanted it to end. The picture was absolutely phenomenal! Clear, crisp, vibrant. The controls felt a little strange - “I guess I’m gonna have to re-learn some things now that I’m sitting in front of this wall of righteous gaming glory.” I thought to myself.
I had spent months researching which TV to buy and what technology was best suited for videogames, and I was concerned that I would have to hire a professional calibrator to come out and dial-in my picture. But, after seeing and experiencing the glory of my new and flawless gaming portal I was sure that I could just tweak it myself and save the $300 on the pro calibrator.
Next I threw in Wind Waker: Awesome! Then, Prince of Persia SoT: Fantastic! Then, Luigi’s Mansion: Unbelievable! And so on, and so on, and so on… The last game I chose: Metroid Prime. I nearly began to cry tears of nerd-joy… I had found the Promised Land. I took Samus deep into the impact crater and came face to face with the dark worm that dwelt in the blackest recesses of Talon IV. The monstrous beast lumbered across my huge screen like a 10-story-tall mechanical spider. Having not played Prime for almost a year, I was doomed …And as Samus took her final breath in the clutches of phazon-mutated death, the smile on my face reached the boundaries of human encapsulation. The dreams of my childhood self, the aspirations of my desire to be one with my game were finally coming true… At that moment, I knew ecstasy.
At about 2am, I started to feel nauseous and had to stop. “I’m gonna have to get acclimated to playing on such a big screen”… I thought to myself as I went to sleep that night… All was right with the world.
Then everything went wrong.
It all started when I came home from work the next day and found my wife playing Animal Crossing. I sat for about 15 minutes just watching her play; picking weeds, digging holes, talking to fellow residents, it was glorious! Then, when she came upon my 2 story house in the center of town I said, “Hey, go inside and let’s play Super Mario Bros!” I thought it would be oh-so-nostalgic to play my old favorite game on my new gigantic monitor. So, she took her cutesy character into my NES-game-filled house and started up Super Mario Bros. (For those of you who don’t know: Animal Crossing contains a playable, full version of the original NES Super Mario Bros.) After about 1 minute of playing SMB, my wife looked at me and said, “The controls are all messed up…” I was like, huh? What are you talking about? And she said, “Yeah, the controls are all lagging and slow-like…” I took the controller into my hands and played for myself the ultra-familiar level 1-1.
Indeed. There was a distinct lag between button-press and onscreen-response. In other words, when I pressed the JUMP button, Mario JUMPED about ¼ second later. At this moment I turned to my girl and said in a monotone voice, “What did you do to my TV?!” She responded quickly, “I didn’t do anything - I pushed power on the TV remote, put in Animal Crossing, turned on the Nintendo, and sat down.” I looked back at my new TV and stared for a long, long moment. I grabbed the remote control and went through all the video options and made sure everything was correct. I reset the Nintendo and went into the Gamecube setup screen to check for any video options, which there weren’t any. Again, I fired-up Animal Crossing… Mr. Resetti popped up!! After dealing with him, I quickly played SMB again - same problem as before: Mario’s jump response was just slightly after I pressed the jump button. It was at this point that I began to notice that the sound was slightly off as well. I proceeded through levels 1-1 and 1-2 and, I sucked. I was missing ? blocks, falling off ledges and dying, getting hit by goombas - it was disgraceful! I turned off the TV, the Nintendo, and pulled the plugs from the wall.
After about 5 minutes, I turned everything back on and tried it again… Same story. Then I popped in Wario World… Same story; the jump response was latent. Again I stumbled around in the game. My timing was horribly affected by the lag between button-press and screen-response. I tried Prince of Persia: same thing. Tetris: same thing. Metroid Prime: same thing; when I made Samus curl into a ball and drop a bomb, the bomb appeared about ¼ second after I pressed the button. I wondered why I hadn’t noticed this lag while playing the previous night, but I guess I was so in awe of my new HDTV that I wasn’t really paying attention all that closely. Once again I shut everything off and restarted… It was no use.
I unplugged the Nintendo and took it downstairs and hooked it up to my 27” CRT - everything was normal; Samus’ bomb response was instantaneous. I popped in Animal Crossing: Mr. Resetti!! - but Mario’s jump response was normal and I flawlessly flew through level 1-1.
At this point desperation was beginning to set in. Could this be caused by the fact that I was using Gamecube component cables? Is there a power issue? Is my controller messed up? Is it the TV? I knew a way to answer these questions once and for all…
Out of the closet came my original NES. I hooked it up to the monstrous 56” screen via the AV1 inputs (red and yellow cables) I popped in my Super Mario Bros cartridge, pressed the power button, and…
To make a long and sad story short - I drove my brand new 56” DLP HDTV back to Fry’s Electronics the next day… Defeated.
After my NES failed to be immune to the HDTV latency problem, I vigorously researched the issue. Apparently, “Latency” is the dirty little secret of HDTV. It is a well know and well documented problem that affects all formats of HDTV: DLP, LCD, Plasma, LCoS, and even CRT. The vast majority of HDTV users experience latency while trying to sync up video with sound; essentially, what you see onscreen falls behind what you hear from the speakers. As a solution for home theater latency issues, several companies offer devices that off-set the sound so-as-to sync up audio/video. But no such device can be used to fix the Videogame/HDTV latency problem. The problem occurs during the process of video “upconversion” and there is NO real-time permanent solution. Not yet.
Upconversion is the process that HDTVs use to convert analog and low resolution digital signals to the higher native resolution of the TV itself. For example, the Gamecube puts out video via component cables at a resolution of 480i (some games have a progressive-scan 480p mode). The native resolution of my 56” DLP HDTV was 768p. So, the 480i video coming out of the Gamecube must be “upconverted” to match the 768p native resolution of the HDTV. This process can take anywhere between 35 and 500 milliseconds - the death-blow for videogames. I did find some ways to minimize latency on my particular HDTV model: I shut off digital noise filtering, reduced the SNR threshold, turned off DNIE, but the result was still short of acceptable. To make matters worse, it is VERY hard to find any resources that deal specifically with gaming related HDTV issues. Apparently some gamers detect the latency, and others do not. From what I’ve been reading, it’s about 50 / 50. I wish I was one of the other 50.
Since that dreaded day when Hi-Def reality hit me like a ton of koopas, my research has been thorough, and the truth about gaming on HDTV is this: The current generation of HDTVs and the technology that makes them tick is inherently flawed by processing speed issues. Even a $20,000 plasma screen will have your Mario jumping just a little behind schedule. Accordingly, the ill-suited-for-gaming nature of HDTV begs one important question: What are PS3 and XBOX360 going to do when ½ of all gamers complain that their slick, new HDTV compatible game consoles have mind-numbing latency issues. Time will tell…
In conclusion, it is always smart to test out the findings and facts of others. If you are still dead set on buying a large format HDTV for the purpose of gaming - TEST IT OUT!!!!! Take your Gamecube/Xbox/ps2 down to the local electronics store and plug it in. Try the analog inputs, the digital inputs. Mess with the various video settings and get a feel for the television. Maybe you are among the lucky 50% and won’t detect latency. Believe me when I tell you that over the past 4-5 months I have read TONS of good things about HDTV technology and not 1 single thing about video related latency until I specifically looked for it. I’m sure the HDTV manufacturers are happy about that.
Contributor: octorok











Well I have a HDTV and its great with my gamecube.
Nintendofreak - 08.08.05 10:02 pm
I have an HDTV, and it works fine with my PS2, Xbox, PC, Gamecube, Dreamcast.. I play most my old NES stuff on the xbox without any kind of lag.. This is the first I have heard of this
ccb - 08.08.05 10:09 pm
Hmm that certainly is interesting. I got a flat screen like a year ago and I was considering upgrading into HD. Looks like I have more to research than I thought. Thanks for sharing.
JR - 08.08.05 10:15 pm
My condolensces for your HDTV experience.
Logan P - 08.08.05 10:29 pm
Call me back when decent HDTVs retail for sub-500. Until then, S-video all the way.
4ndy - 08.08.05 10:59 pm
Would the people who have HDTVs (latent and non-latent responses) post the make and model of their sets please?
lstr - 08.08.05 11:01 pm
^^^ I was just about to ask the same question… I have been hearing good things about LCD, but in my testing of a sony LCD 50″ - I noticed the lag….please HELP!!
octorok - 08.08.05 11:04 pm
Aww, your story is heartbreaking Nick.
Well I guess I don’t feel so bad anymore for being among the many “budget” gamers.
Just remember, the picture isn’t the whole experience.
hokku - 08.08.05 11:09 pm
btw - the model TV had bought and returned was a Samsung HLR5667W
now I go cry…
octorok - 08.08.05 11:09 pm
may your HD be friends and don’t let the 1/4 sec delay come between u and ur 56″. many of us want to have one u know. We will be watching u.
eom - 08.08.05 11:11 pm
oops, I mean your story Octorok. I didn’t read the thing on top.
Too bad you’re only a guest columnist. You’re a very good writer.
hokku - 08.08.05 11:11 pm
I have a Dell 2405FPW, a widescreen computer monitor. It lags, most notably games like Mario Golf on Gamecube. However, its an awesome monitor, except for that fact.
I’m not using a converter either, the GC is plugged straight into the component video input of the monitor. It sucks, there’s probably a good 200 millisecond delay.
Jason - 08.08.05 11:17 pm
Nick, I am very sorry to hear about what happened to you. I experienced the same problem while playing SSBM on a friend’s HDTV before (unfortunately, I don’t know the make/model of the set). But the other weird thing is that it didn’t *always* happen… sometimes we would play GC games on his TV and there would be no latency at all. But when it was there, Melee was basically unplayable. I know exactly what you mean.
Anyway, I JUST got a new 37″ Westinghouse HD-Ready LCD Video Monitor. I have tested it with several N64 and GameCube games, and so far, so good. I did research HDTVs before making my purchase, but now I’m kind of kicking myself for not specifically looking into this lag issue even after I saw it firsthand on my friend’s TV. Here’s hoping I just continue not having any problems with mine.
Pikachelsea - 08.08.05 11:18 pm
Oops, I just noticed the contributor was octorok, not Nick. Sorry about that.
Pikachelsea - 08.08.05 11:20 pm
Really sorry to read about your bad adventure man.
I have noticed this before and I have actually run into problems like this. One was at a Super Smash Brothers tournament, and I was one of the few complaining. Everybody said I was making it up. Although, I have played on Plasma screens that have not had this problem. My advice is to shop around.
By the way, do you live in Washington? You said an hour drive south. That marks around Centrailia or somewhere nearby. Anyway, I live in Olympia
.
I have noticed this
VideoGamerJ - 08.08.05 11:23 pm
Hey, we may all live near each other. I live in Tumwater and go to Olympia all the time :O
Pikachelsea - 08.08.05 11:27 pm
Rich snob…
Kammo - 08.08.05 11:39 pm
Well, I had suspected as much and have had a similar instance. I bought a Sony Vaio computer with Gigapocket TV support so that I could use one monitor for all of my digital needs. I use a 17″ flat panel monitor.
I was totally dismayed when I plugged my Gamecube (via S-video) into the computer - easly a 300ms lag between button press and screen reaction. Nothing can fix the problem. I understand running it through a PC may cause additional lag, but it’s definitely a problem.
However, I’ve been recently playing my old SNES on my dad’s 56″ Toshiba HDTV, and absolutely no problems. I guess I would conclude based on all I’ve read that results may vary by model. Sad story though… I hope your situation improves.
One more note - not only might the lag time of HD gaming be more noticeable, but the processing power needed for HD gaming is much greater as well. How sad it is that most 1st generation Xbox360 games may suffer from stuttering frame rates in HD… while regular res Revolution gaming sees 60 FPS… another thing to think about in the HD debate.
Greg - 08.08.05 11:41 pm
Kammo, I hope that was a joke.
Pikachelsea - 08.08.05 11:52 pm
Octorok Wrote: “Believe me when I tell you that over the past 4-5 months I have read TONS of good things about HDTV technology and not 1 single thing about video related latency until I specifically looked for it. I’m sure the HDTV manufacturers are happy about that.”
I’m sure the HDTV manufacturers are paying people to not post about this problem with game consoles…
Joey - 08.08.05 11:54 pm
OOOOOOHH I wish i lived in washington… lucky ducks.
Joey - 08.08.05 11:55 pm
Pikachelsea: Of course it was. ^-^
Kammo - 08.08.05 11:57 pm
I live about 20 mins north of Vancouver - due west of Mt St. Helens… BOOM!
octorok - 08.09.05 12:03 am
you have wife that play animal crossing teh awesome man
mr.tt - 08.09.05 12:04 am
I don’t know much about HDTV, but wont the 360 and PS3 be capable of pumping out signals at 768p upwards, eliminating the need for upconversion?
The revolution on the other hand will be 480p, meaning latency problems for the foreseeable future with nintendo??
sammyAD - 08.09.05 12:31 am
The problem is the DLP , stands for “Digital Low Performance”, ….just kidding, seriously it could be anything from a low batteries power if you’re playing with the wavebird or the console is acting funny, and the the TV is just a display and has nothing to do with response or feedback.
SKEPTIX - 08.09.05 12:41 am
Skeptix, did you even read the article? Latency is a real phenomenon in HDTV. Isn’t it obvious that he tried everything to rule out whether it was the TV or the games/console that was acting up?
Pikachelsea - 08.09.05 1:00 am
yeah Skeptix, he’s not saying the TV is lagging his console, but the TV itself is late in showing the images. When he presses jump, Mario jumps, but the screen isn’t showing it until 1/4 second later.
hokku - 08.09.05 1:25 am
I find this very, very interesting. I don’t plan in the immediate future to get an HDTV but hopefully within the next couple of years. I just have a question, are there known HDTVs that DO NOT have a delay? Or could the same model of TV vary (one set have a delay, someone else buys the same set and doesn’t). I recently played my gamecube at a place my friend was house sitting, it was a gigantic. I played a few games and didn’t have any problem. But the only thing I didn’t like (and i’m very, very critical about) is pixelation. The TV was so large everything looked pixelated if you werent on the other side of the room. If I got an HDTV I would go with a modest size.
robotplague - 08.09.05 1:39 am
My TV - Sony HS-500 32″ CRT
The problem with UP conversion is that most TVs only take certain resolutions natively. This is NOT a problem with all HDTVs. If you are going to buy an HDTV make sure it resolves 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i (at least), natively. My TV does not take 720p natively and it converts it to 1080i. I don’t have much of a problem because only FOX broadcasts at that resolution and I don’t play Soul Calibur 2 on Xbox, which is one of the few games with 720p. At this very moment I am playing Tales of Symphonia (great game, btw) and no latency issues. My tv is connected to Xbox, PS2, GC, Gameboy player, NES, DVD, and HD broadcasts and I’ve never had a problem. This is not because I don’t notice it either; I regard myself as a twitch gamer (halo2, SSBM, etc) and would not be able to play these games well if there was latency.
I was looking to buy a DLP tv because as of now, they are the highes quality HDTVs around, but I did notice these very weird native resolutions such as 768p (this comes from the PC industry, 1024×768), which no one broadcasts and no console will ever output natively. So to sum it up, HDTV is wonderful, just make sure that your HD set takes 480i/p, 720p, and 1080i natively (1080p if you are thinking of buying a PS3 I suppose).
AztecL0B0 - 08.09.05 1:47 am
^^^ Nice follow up Azteclobo. I still have nearly $4000 burning a hole in my pocket, and I want to buy an HDTV 50″+ - but now I’m terrified about buying the wrong set… YIKES!!
octorok - 08.09.05 2:01 am
AztecL0b0 sounds correct. Get a TV that supports all of the resolutions natively…problem solved.
However, I heard that XBOX360 and all HDTV consoles will suffer from lower framerates…..
DynamicStability - 08.09.05 2:19 am
Here’s a nice solution if you’ve got the space - forget the 60″ HD TV, go straight for a HD DLP projector and project the thing 6 foot instead. I do it, and i love it. Sure, you need to darken the room to play but if you have a TV as well you can use the TV for daytime playing and the projector for night time. I work during the day (which is where I am now) so I play only at night and its the best thing ever created by anyone for anything ever.
Bender - 08.09.05 2:41 am
I have a Philips. I’m not sure of the model, but I wouldn’t recommend it anyway (the regular prgressive scan picture can’t be set in 4:3).
However, it’s a CRT. The reason I mention this is because, at least as far as I have seen, CRTs don’t have this problem. Why? Because most of them do 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i natively. No upconverting, or down converting, just native resolution the way it was meant to be seen.
It works the same way tube monitors work. If the signal from your computer is 900×1200, then that is what the monitor displays. If it’s 480×640, then that is what your monitor displays. Same thing. No latency.
The problem is the bulk. You aren’t going to find CRTs that are flat panel. I know that some company managaed to work out big screen HDTV CRTs that were only like 12 inches deep, but I couldn’t tell you who.
At this point there is no way to have your cake and eat it too.
As for the person who said that all all HDTV consoles will have framerate issues, the Xbox360 won’t. At least not because of HD. The graphics chip has 10MB of eDRAM which will act as a frame buffer, and due to the incredibly high bandwidth of the on-chip memory, it can do it several times a second. Enough that 1080i will be no more of a strain on the chip than 480i is. (All with 4x AA. I can’t wait.)
Wupideedoo - 08.09.05 4:12 am
I’m going to have to agree with Bender on this one. I’ve got a projector and it works just fine for me, even though it is a bit of an older model and the resolution is low… Someday I suppose I’ll get a better one when money and space allow me…
handpuppet - 08.09.05 4:23 am
Quote: DynamicStability
However, I heard that XBOX360 and all HDTV consoles will suffer from lower framerates…..
Whoever told you a machine with 3 symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz will have famerate problems needs to be smacked. Then next gen is built with hd in mind. Actually the current xbox is as well(See conker or any team ninja game). As much as I love nintendo it is not an example of HD gaming.
midget007 - 08.09.05 4:46 am
Oooh bad luck. I guess that PS3 and Xbox360 won’t have a problem tho cos they will be pumping out 720p as a native format anyway
the_angry_monkey - 08.09.05 5:22 am
I have an HD tv at home too, i played all my gamecube games, i noticed no latency… till i played Donkey Konga, IMPOSSIBLE ! its like when your supposed to get an Excellent you get Ok… and when your supposed to get ok… you get baD !
Ykd - 08.09.05 7:10 am
“I guess that PS3 and Xbox360 won’t have a problem tho cos they will be pumping out 720p as a native format anyway”
Yeah, if the delay is caused by “upconversion” then I doubt PS3 and Xbox will have problems with HDTV, since they outpit 720p. More likely, since the Revolution is supposed to be outputting something like 480p (I think?), then there’s a chance that this problem might affect the revolution too.
baxter - 08.09.05 8:14 am
A lot of television sets that have upconversion also offer you a way to turn it off, either in the TVs menu or via the “service” menu. The service menu can be activated usually through a number of button presses on the remote while the television is off and end with pressing the power button. Calibrators usually work a lot of their magic from this menu.
A lot of home theater experts just turn a lot of that junk off as it usually adversely affects the movie watching experience. Upconversion and edge enhancement at this point are mostly present to off-set the blurry look of a standard non HD cable signal that most people get when they hook up their TV for the first time, which is usually when they realize they’re going to have to pay more for HD cable and that 90% of the programming will still be in standard resolution. Most HD television returns and complaints seem to happen almost immediately after that point.
Since all the upconversion stuff happens inside the television, it doesn’t really matter what the system outputs, only what resolution the upconversion will output. If your PS3 outputs 720p and your TV upconverts it to 1080i, there could still be lag.
In short, dig up (i.e. google) the service menu info for your specific brand, calibrate the TV yourself and turn off line-doubling and upconversion. In most cases you’ll be happy you did.
pr0fessional - 08.09.05 9:01 am
oioioi - crt is the only way to go, as others have said, its all native! i have 2 sony HD crt’s and they are awesome - they don’t give you the flat screen ego trip, but f’ that nonsense.
crt!
kappaappaslappa - 08.09.05 9:03 am
I’ve had a 32″ Samsung CRT HDTV for 3 years now, and I’ve never experienced latency with any device (Digital Cable, GCN, N64, PS2, XBOX, DVD, DC, TG16, etc.). I’ve had a Dell 2300MP Projector (DLP, HDTV) beaming onto a 100″ pull-down for 6months, again with no issues whatsoever. I’d definiely be one to notice such a horrible plight such as latency.
You should really consider looking at the DLP projectors. Far more bang for your buck. The projector, 3 year advanced replacement warranty, and 100″ screen totaled to less than half of that 56″ DLP HD behemoth.
There truely is glory to be had in HD
http://redruth.greenbean.org/~ben/room/IMG_0441.jpg
boon - 08.09.05 9:59 am
hey Pikachelsea I was just kidding
MACRAMAN - 08.09.05 11:16 am
You guys actually videogames on plasmas? That’s a sure way to get nasty image burn. Trust me, nothing’s more annoying then seeing a 3x life symbol faded in the background during a movie.
Derek - 08.09.05 12:33 pm
Ok, so XBOX360 games are required to push a minimum of 30FPS by Microsoft and some are aiming at 60fps. Still sounds like a framerate issue to me compared to PC games…and since this isn’t a normal television where 27fps will suffice… 30FPS is going to be very noticeable….and 60fps will probably annoy some PC gamers.
And don’t give me that “Humans can only see 60fps” bull…those are the lesser evolved humans that still wander this planet.
DynamicStability - 08.09.05 12:45 pm
Some models of Samsung DLP HDTVs have known issues with lag during upconversion. You probably got stuck with one of those models. I recently got a Sony 30″ CRT HDTV that does 480i, 480p and 1080i natively. Although it doesn’t support 720p native, it does an excellent (and seemingly lag-free) upconversion of that material. From what I’ve read, most CRT based HDTVs do not suffer from upconversion lag. The issue seems to be much more prevalent in LCD, DLP and plasma based HDTVs.
Adam - 08.09.05 12:58 pm
Gods! my friend had that EXACT PROBLEM! He tried everything and then finally returned the HD TV. Funny thing really, I was the one who actually tried talking him out of it in the beginning. I’d done my own research on HD because I work with digital video and the problems I found were enormous. At first I asked at stores but they were just trying to sell their products. So I met with a friend who works for independent film companies and we talked about everything HD. Actually it was mostly about the new HD pro consumer cameras. . but I got around to telling him about the lag on games that my friend experienced.
And he began telling me about all the issues HD TV’s are facing, the stuff that the companies don’t tell the consumers.
Advice: Be aware of hidden the problems. Sometimes having the latest and greatest isn’t worth the price.
~ Lily S.
Lily S. - 08.09.05 2:04 pm
I went and tested my PS2 at Circuit City on all sorts of HDTVs.
The best game to test with is Hot Shots Golf. That way you can show the salesperson when you press the button and when the timing bar of the game actually stops. The lag is quite noticible due to the simple control mechanism.
The main culprit of the lag from my experience is the Samsung DLPs that came out in the last 2 years.
I ended up with a Sony 60″ Grand WEGA LCD and am very happy with it. The screen for movies isn’t quite as sharp as the Samsung DLPs, but I use it for mainly games.
Dan A. - 08.09.05 2:32 pm
^^^^ Dan, is that a projection LCD or flat-screen? which model did you get? - Im looking at the Sony 50″ LCD KDF-E50A10 projector. How do games look on the LCD? Ill be going to fry’s tomorrw to test some TVs out.
octorok - 08.09.05 2:45 pm
My condolences. As an aside, it’s funny how everyone was ranting about the lack of HDTV support in the Revolution. Now everyone will be calling Microsoft and Sony wondering why their system lag so bad. Just a funny twist of fate. Perhaps Nintendo knew of the lag problem and decided to dodge that bullet?
Johan - 08.09.05 3:57 pm
dang Boon.. that’s gorgeous. I’ve gotten to play on an old LCD projector a few times, and it’s nice just to have a huge screen, but that DLP really outshines it. Wish I had a couple thou. to spend on one (before Zelda TP comes out of course) :/
Sir Kero - 08.09.05 4:51 pm
Sir Kero, I spent $1500USD for everything. The unit itself was $1000, 3yr warranty was $300, and the screen was $150 at Frys. So worth the investment if you enjoy games/movies at all.
boon - 08.09.05 5:50 pm
Ah. So not so close to Olympia then Octorok. Well, Pikachelsea, I work at the GameStop in Olympia, so if you are ever in the area, come by for a visit
VideoGamerJ - 08.09.05 6:24 pm
HDTV rock that’s all there is to it.
mcheddadi - 08.09.05 8:59 pm
Macraman: Huh?
Videogamerj: Ah, you mean the one in Capital Mall? I picked up Meteos there just a couple weeks ago and reserved a copy of Twilight Princess. Maybe we already met and didn’t know it! Small world…
Anyway, all of this talk has got me a bit paraonoid now… guess I ought to go test out more games and make sure they work OK with my new monitor.
Also, to the person who was offering the Xbox 360’s specs as proof of why Xbox owners should have no lag problems on HDTV… I think what I’ve gathered from this discussion is that the specs of your system doesn’t matter. If upconversion is occurring (i.e. if you’re playing a game in a lower resolution that your monitor/TV natively supports), then there’s a risk of latency, depending on the model of the TV. All the processing horsepower in the world won’t really prevent that, I don’t think, if you’re stuck with a bad latency-prone HDTV.
Pikachelsea - 08.09.05 9:16 pm
re-read my post pikachelsea I was using the specs to dispute the framerate problem. Your are right though it will pay off to make sure the hdtv will support the correct res without upconversion no matter how powerful a system is.
midget007 - 08.09.05 9:35 pm
Capital Mall, Negative. I work at the one across from Toys R Us.
VideoGamerJ - 08.10.05 1:08 am
Dude, all I can say is thanks a ton for the warning, Octorok. You may have saved a lot of us from a disastrous purchase. The Revolution is sounding better and better every day.
namor7 - 08.10.05 5:51 am
A little bit to think about:
Not that I’m particularily fond of the ps3 or xbox 360, both will output in the native hdtv resolution, so no “upconversion” will be necessary and you won’t have lag. The Revolution however will still have this issue on hdtvs I’m assuming, since it won’t support the higher resolutions.
Joseph - 08.10.05 1:29 pm
Joseph: Huh? You can’t know if PS3 and Xbox 360 will output in the “native resolution” unless you know what TV you’re dealing with and what its native resolution is. I don’t think it’s a “one size fits all” deal with the Xbox 360 and PS3.
Pikachelsea - 08.10.05 3:54 pm
In my experiences with my Samsung HL-P5085W, some 480i signals do lag a bit. Thats why, especially with gaming, you have to enable progressive scan output from your game system.
With the Gamecube, hold B until a dialog comes up asking if you want to enable progressive scan in games that do support it. Now, like magic, you can play your games without any lag. Make sure you have those component cables.
Skittilz - 08.10.05 4:44 pm
Thank god I thought I was the only one noticing this problem!
Read the saga of my new LG LCD tv:
http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=37115
http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=36982
http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=38022
http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?p=685611
Dave - 08.18.05 7:28 pm
I want to clear some things up. It sounds like you weren’t playing those games in proscan. Hold B when you turn on the GameCube.
It is true that when playing with interlaced signals on a DLP there is a noticable amount of lag, so your older, analog systems will have lag on 99% of DLP sets. The newer LCD sets have such a tiny bit of lag, it’s not noticable to anyone.
Also, the Xbox 360 and PS3 will have absolutely zero lag on an HDTV, this is because they are already outputting an HD signal, so no upconversion is necessary. When you play in 480p (EDTV) very little upconversion is needed, only for the resolution, since the picture is already in proscan.
That is the reason for your lag. Get a Toshiba DLP, which has a “GAME” mode. There is no lag when playing in this mode. Or get one of the new A10 lines from Sony, they are 3LCD TVs with black levels nearly as good as DLP at a fraction of the cost. These TVs have no lag whatsoever. Beautiful sets.
For more information, visit www.avsforum.com
Kyle - 08.21.05 6:10 pm
Remember, the new consoles won’t have HDTV latency, because the minimum for output will be 720p.
retro - 08.22.05 6:12 pm
I just got a Samsung HLR5668W and i hooked up my playstation 2 and it lagged BAD….about a 1 second lag. On the HLR models you can go to “Input” on the TV menu and then to “Edit Name” under the components and change the name of the component input to “GAME” type. I did this and it cut my lag in half. However, the lag was so bad that games are still unplayable. But this may work for you guys that don’t have a HUGE lag like I did.
Russell - 08.25.05 5:32 pm
DynamicStability, you’re comment on how games will look poor even at 60FPS is completely false. NTSC based sets all have a fixed refresh rate of 60Hz… Meaning they can only support a max of 60FPS.. anything above that is just wasted and never seen. Also interlaced signals (such as 480i or 1080i) only update half the screen per refresh meaning their effective FPS maxes out at 30… So even if your game is pumping out 60FPS… if you’re viewing it in 480i you’re only seeing 30FPS. PAL sets have a refresh rate of 50Hz so they max out at 50FPS and 25FPS for progressive and interlaced modes respectively.
As for next gen consoles the 360 has a scaler built into the video encoder. Reading through some of the hardware developer interviews the games will all be programmed in 720p and then scaled up or down internally depending on the user’s preference. IMO this is a great system because then (regardless of what a particular game supports) you could just dial in your set’s native resolution and not worry about your TV’s scaler lagging the video.
I haven’t seen any tech like that from either the Sony or Nintendo camps… but then again they’re not as close to their respective releases as Microsoft is. Without something like that HD support is purely on a game by game bases (as it is with the Xbox today… which BTW DOES support HD resolutions… but again on a game by game bases).
Twistedsymphony - 08.26.05 3:55 pm
Like Pickachelsea above, I also have the Westinghouse 37″ 1080p LCD - costs ~$2K US. One of the reasons I bought this particular TV is that PS3 will output in 1080p, as will Blu-ray discs.
I’ve tried a number of games on the Game Cube with no lag whatsoever - the games look great and the response time from the controller is immediate…
Need 1080p - 08.28.05 4:38 pm
I’ve been gaming in HDTV for years now. I was one of the first to jump into HDTV and HDTV gaming. I question many of the manufacturers mentioned earlier in this thread. In my opinion, their designs are cheap and compromise in quality over cost.
I went with Pioneer. Even though they are more expensive, they never compromise in VIDEO clarity and in the quality of their components. I have a Pioneer 58″ SD-582HD5 projection TV screen… a monster in size. It works like a champ. It was top of the line in it’s day and still beats many cheaper HDTV’s today because of it’s top-of-the-line components. The picture clarity more than makes up for it’s size. I can imagine a cheaper HDTV might have lag problems if they are using cheaper components/design.
I do not experience lags in ANY of the games I play on it. You name it and it’s probably been played on this TV. I have many avid gaming friends who have never noticed any lag time either…and believe me, they would tell me if I did. We play Smash Bros., Burnout3, PSO, Prince of Persia, Zelda, Pikman, Viewtiful Joe, Naruto…etc. The game cube lags when there are 4 simultaneous players… but that’s always been an issue with Nintendo. My Xbox has zero lags and blazing load times. Both my Panasonic-Q and Gamecube work just fine in PROGRESSIVE MODE.
Burnout games are excellent testers for lag time. The game is so freakin fast that ANY lag would put you into a wall [GAMEOVER]. The high-def is a must when you play this game to see what’s coming at you before you hit it. We’ve had no noticable lag and we play hours on end. Xbox and PS2 also play without any lags. So, as to HDTV and video performance on a GameCube… it is possible to have no lag. But, like I said before, it all depends on the manufacturer and the quality that goes into them. Pioneer has always had the best video in HDTV without compromise. HDTV is a standard in broadcast resolution, not in design implementation. SO, all HDTV’s are NOT CREATED EQUAL!
The only downside I’ve seen in bigscreen HDTV gaming is simulation sickness. With my huge screen, I really have to pace myself with new games until I get used to it. Otherwise, I get sick and nautious.
Also, I am surprise that game designers still have not takin’ into account that some TV’s screenburn. Which they seem to ignore! So you have to be careful what game you play and how long you play them on projections and plasmas. If you dont change your viewing options, you might find your game stats on your regular TV viewing.
BUT, if you don’t put your system in progressive mode, then you negate this whole discussion thread.
mail2me1 - 08.28.05 5:50 pm
i just read the story, i dont think the new systems will have a problem, because they will be able to output the video at the same resolution as the HDTV so there wont be any upconverting and therefor no lag, that was the problem wasnt it? it upconverted so there was lag? there shouldnt be any lag! when the output is the same, thats what i think:D
adrian - 08.28.05 7:52 pm
I HAVE NEVER F###ing LAGGED ON ANY NINTENDO SYSTEM 1-4 players. IT IS YOUR F###ing CHEAP A$$ GAMECUBE MOTHERF###ER. WTF BLAMING IT ON NINTENDO.
ghostku - 08.28.05 11:51 pm
I have one of the new Samsung SlimFit CRTs. I’m using the component cables for my PS2, and I have zero lag problems in any game. Most of them are 480i, although a handful support 480p (and GT4 supports 1080i). Really, it sounds like your scaler is/was defective, or a piece of crap.
You might want to either invest in an external scaler, or exchange the TV for a different model.
Nathan
gblues - 09.01.05 12:00 pm
I have a Sony 54″ HDTV Crt with absoultely NO latency that I can tell.. I bought it a couple of years ago.. I guess I was lucky in my purchase..
It is a CRT that supports 480i/p and 1080i… it doesn’t support 720p…it doesn’t up/down convert unless you specify in the menu..
Chad - 09.02.05 9:21 pm
Will a PS3 or 360 work well (if at all) on a standard TV?
Mattio - 09.03.05 3:46 am
Mattio: of course. Sony and Microsoft would be alienating a lot of people if they didn’t support SDTV’s. You just have to use the correct cables for whatever inputs your TV supports (ie. Composite, S-Video, etc.).
My question is, as Adrian pointed out, there shouldn’t be a problem if the console supports the native resolution of one’s HDTV, correct? I was looking at the LG 26LX1D, as it has a response time of 8ms (though I think it could be 16ms, as there is no standard definition for this), and support for 720p (the resolution is 768p, but it is close enough). Can anyone please comment on this TV, or LG HDTV’s in general?
Jay - 09.03.05 4:50 am
The problem is with upconversion. Do you have a list of HDTVs that do not do upconversion? HDTV is awesome and what you want is a tv that supports all resolutions in their native modes no upconversion.
Gamers need tvs that support 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and some day 1080p.
Ryan - 09.22.05 10:06 am